Mots rares
- Thread starter agerzam
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Amastan13
New Member
Re : Mots rares
Azul fell-ak a Agerzam,
Nnuqert :
Personnellement, je ne connais pas ce mot pour "argent". Il ressemble à un mot kabyle, "nneqra", qui n'a apparemment pas de relation sémantique avec lui. "Nneqra" (d'origine arabe ?) signifie "bute", élévation légère du terrait qui peut te faire un croche-pied :
Twet-it nneqra === Il a buté.
"Nneqra" est également appelée "ugur" en kabyle.
Le mot "ugur" signifie également "problème, souci" :
Yella wugur === Il y a un problème.
Ur yezmir ara ad yefru ugur-ines i yiman-is === Il ne peut pas résourdres ses problèmes
tout seul.
La yettxemmim ghef wuguren-ines === Il pense à ses problèmes/ses soucis.
Le mot "ugur" viendrait apparemment de la racine GR qui donne le verbe "agar" (dépasser, être plus grand que).
Ar timlilit ma yebgha R'ebbi
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
Azul fell-ak a Agerzam,
Nnuqert :
Personnellement, je ne connais pas ce mot pour "argent". Il ressemble à un mot kabyle, "nneqra", qui n'a apparemment pas de relation sémantique avec lui. "Nneqra" (d'origine arabe ?) signifie "bute", élévation légère du terrait qui peut te faire un croche-pied :
Twet-it nneqra === Il a buté.
"Nneqra" est également appelée "ugur" en kabyle.
Le mot "ugur" signifie également "problème, souci" :
Yella wugur === Il y a un problème.
Ur yezmir ara ad yefru ugur-ines i yiman-is === Il ne peut pas résourdres ses problèmes
tout seul.
La yettxemmim ghef wuguren-ines === Il pense à ses problèmes/ses soucis.
Le mot "ugur" viendrait apparemment de la racine GR qui donne le verbe "agar" (dépasser, être plus grand que).
Ar timlilit ma yebgha R'ebbi
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
Re : Mots rares
Exactement les vêtements que l'on met à sécher alors qu'il n'y a pas de soleil: zufern...
Il y' a aussi:
Adu ighwmeln...(Je ne sais pas comment dire en français; mais des vêtements lavés et laissés dans la machine longtemps (pour reprendre ton exemple) sentent cette odeur...)
Adu ismumen...(Odeur "acide"...)
Amastan13 said:
Exactement les vêtements que l'on met à sécher alors qu'il n'y a pas de soleil: zufern...
Il y' a aussi:
Adu ighwmeln...(Je ne sais pas comment dire en français; mais des vêtements lavés et laissés dans la machine longtemps (pour reprendre ton exemple) sentent cette odeur...)
Adu ismumen...(Odeur "acide"...)
Amastan13
New Member
Re : Mots rares
Azul fell-am a Tamaynut,
Il y a un autre mot interessant, encore utilisé en chleuh : ad'u (pour odeur).
Le mot est encore utilisé en touareg. En fait, le chleuh est l'un des dialectes nord les plus proches du touareg. Le touareg est caractérisé par la présence de très nombreuses racines amazighes anciennes (lexique très riche) ainsi que de nombreux mots qui portent encore les sens anciens de la langue amazighe. C'est le cas mot le chleuh dans de nombreux mots qui ont, par ailleurs, disparu dans les dialectes du littoral méditerranéen (Aures, kabyle, Algérie occidentale, Rif, globalement).
Le mot "ad'u" signifie en général "vent", mais également "odeur" (sens qui est ancien).
Il est interessant de comparer ce sens avec celui de l'arabe "riih'".
Ad'u === odeur/vent (amazigh)
Riih' === odeur/vent (arabe)
Cette resseblance dans le sens pourrait remonter au protoafroasiatique (ancêtre de la famille afroasiatique). Il existe des ressemblances ou des recoupements de sens de ce genre dans les langues afroasiatiques. On en discutera dans d'autres messages ncalleh.
Le mot "ad'u" signifie également "grippe, rhume" :
Iwet-it wad'u === litt. Le vent l'a frappé === Il a une grippe/un rhume.
Dans le kabyle occidental on dit "Iwet-it ubeh'ri" :
"Abeh'ri" signifie "brise", ça vient de l'arabe populaire "beh'ri" (litt. marin), dérivé du mot "bh'er'" (mer), en référence à la brise qui vient de la mer.
Le mot "ad'u" a un verbe apparenté : sud' (souffler).
La d-yettsud'u wad'u === Le vent souffle.
La d-yettsud'u ucelyad' seg ddaw tewwurt === Le courant d'ait souffle par le dessous de la porte (il passe par-dessous la porte).
Ce verbe aurait une forme ancienne, "shed'" (souffler, en touareg). Donc, cette racine "SD'" aurait une forme ancienne SHD'".
Le mot touareg "esahed'" signifie "soufflet" (utilisé par le forgeron). Il vient du verbe shed'. Le verbe "sh'ed'" pourrait être composé du transitivant "s" + HD'.
Donc, il est possible que la racine de "ad'u" vienne de HD'.
Ar timlilit ma yebgha R'ebbi
Rzum ghef udeg-nnegh :
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
tamaynut said:
Azul fell-am a Tamaynut,
Il y a un autre mot interessant, encore utilisé en chleuh : ad'u (pour odeur).
Le mot est encore utilisé en touareg. En fait, le chleuh est l'un des dialectes nord les plus proches du touareg. Le touareg est caractérisé par la présence de très nombreuses racines amazighes anciennes (lexique très riche) ainsi que de nombreux mots qui portent encore les sens anciens de la langue amazighe. C'est le cas mot le chleuh dans de nombreux mots qui ont, par ailleurs, disparu dans les dialectes du littoral méditerranéen (Aures, kabyle, Algérie occidentale, Rif, globalement).
Le mot "ad'u" signifie en général "vent", mais également "odeur" (sens qui est ancien).
Il est interessant de comparer ce sens avec celui de l'arabe "riih'".
Ad'u === odeur/vent (amazigh)
Riih' === odeur/vent (arabe)
Cette resseblance dans le sens pourrait remonter au protoafroasiatique (ancêtre de la famille afroasiatique). Il existe des ressemblances ou des recoupements de sens de ce genre dans les langues afroasiatiques. On en discutera dans d'autres messages ncalleh.
Le mot "ad'u" signifie également "grippe, rhume" :
Iwet-it wad'u === litt. Le vent l'a frappé === Il a une grippe/un rhume.
Dans le kabyle occidental on dit "Iwet-it ubeh'ri" :
"Abeh'ri" signifie "brise", ça vient de l'arabe populaire "beh'ri" (litt. marin), dérivé du mot "bh'er'" (mer), en référence à la brise qui vient de la mer.
Le mot "ad'u" a un verbe apparenté : sud' (souffler).
La d-yettsud'u wad'u === Le vent souffle.
La d-yettsud'u ucelyad' seg ddaw tewwurt === Le courant d'ait souffle par le dessous de la porte (il passe par-dessous la porte).
Ce verbe aurait une forme ancienne, "shed'" (souffler, en touareg). Donc, cette racine "SD'" aurait une forme ancienne SHD'".
Le mot touareg "esahed'" signifie "soufflet" (utilisé par le forgeron). Il vient du verbe shed'. Le verbe "sh'ed'" pourrait être composé du transitivant "s" + HD'.
Donc, il est possible que la racine de "ad'u" vienne de HD'.
Ar timlilit ma yebgha R'ebbi
Rzum ghef udeg-nnegh :
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
Re : Mots rares
Azul,
Il y'a une discussion sur le mot "ad'u" ici, (à partir de l'intervention n°34) :
http://www.souss.com/forum/espace-linguistique/7113-la-meteo-4.html?highlight=asemid
Amastan13 said:
Azul,
Il y'a une discussion sur le mot "ad'u" ici, (à partir de l'intervention n°34) :
http://www.souss.com/forum/espace-linguistique/7113-la-meteo-4.html?highlight=asemid
Re : Mots rares
Adëu 1: azwu... Asg. Adëu. fr. Vent.
Adëu 2: illif... Asg. Adëu. fr. Odeur
Adëu3: Ili n ca g tudert ns ghif w acal... Asg. Adëutn. fr. Sort
Adëu4: (iw...ns). Ghas netta... Asg. Adëu. fr. Seul.
Adëu5: Awd hëahë, ur illi ca... Asg. Adëu. fr. Rien.
Source: Dictionnaire de Tamazight, A. Haddachi, 2000. (p.6)
NB. Asg= pluriel
fr= français
...= je n'ai pas écrit tout ce qui est donné par l'auteur.
tamaynut said:
Adëu 1: azwu... Asg. Adëu. fr. Vent.
Adëu 2: illif... Asg. Adëu. fr. Odeur
Adëu3: Ili n ca g tudert ns ghif w acal... Asg. Adëutn. fr. Sort
Adëu4: (iw...ns). Ghas netta... Asg. Adëu. fr. Seul.
Adëu5: Awd hëahë, ur illi ca... Asg. Adëu. fr. Rien.
Source: Dictionnaire de Tamazight, A. Haddachi, 2000. (p.6)
NB. Asg= pluriel
fr= français
...= je n'ai pas écrit tout ce qui est donné par l'auteur.
Amastan13
New Member
Re : Mots rares
Voici un travail sérieux, détaillé et exhaustif. Merci Sin et chapeau pour Haddachi.
Les exemples en langue amazighe, c'est ce dont on a besoin le plus dans les dictionnaires. On a besoin de comprendre comment ces mots sont utilisés
Tanemmirt
Rzum ghef udeg-nnegh :
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
Sin said:
Voici un travail sérieux, détaillé et exhaustif. Merci Sin et chapeau pour Haddachi.
Les exemples en langue amazighe, c'est ce dont on a besoin le plus dans les dictionnaires. On a besoin de comprendre comment ces mots sont utilisés
Tanemmirt
Rzum ghef udeg-nnegh :
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
Amastan13
New Member
Re : Mots rares
Azul fell-ak a Sin,
"Ijjigen n Tidi"
Z'er azday-ad :
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com/id90.html
Ar timlilit
Sin said:
Azul fell-ak a Sin,
"Ijjigen n Tidi"
Z'er azday-ad :
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com/id90.html
Ar timlilit
Amastan13
New Member
Re : Mots rares
Azul fell-ak a gma Idir,
Matta tellid' ?
In the "Lexique de berbère moderne" (Modern Berber Vocabulary) of M. Mammeri and his students, the word :
Tannant (tannanin) means "training" (stage), like professional training.
This neologism is derived from the action noun of the verb "anen" (to be educated, tuareg).
The root of this verb is panamazigh (it is a very old root which exists both in the northern and the southern dialects).
In Kabyle, the verb doesn't exist, but there a noun derived from it :
Amanun (imunan) : this word is used in "azger amanun", which means "trained bull". It is the opposite of "azger aramul" which is not trained for farming activities like ploughing.
In the Modern Berber Vocabulary, the word "amanun" means "trainee" (stagiaire).
I think that the panamazigh verb "ssen" or "issin" comes from the root "NN" (the "s" of the transtive form + the root NN ?). I'm not sure though.
Finally, I would like to ask you a question :
When you read or explore very old Amazigh texts, don't you notice a difference between them and present day Amazigh language (apart from the vocabulary) ? The oldest Berber texts I have read (in Kabyle), trace back to the 16th century, and there is no difference between the language used in that period and the present day language (look "Poésie kabyle ancienne" - Old Kabyle poetry, by M. Mammeri), how about Moroccan and especially Chleuh texts ?
Have a nice evening
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
idir said:
Azul fell-ak a gma Idir,
Matta tellid' ?
In the "Lexique de berbère moderne" (Modern Berber Vocabulary) of M. Mammeri and his students, the word :
Tannant (tannanin) means "training" (stage), like professional training.
This neologism is derived from the action noun of the verb "anen" (to be educated, tuareg).
The root of this verb is panamazigh (it is a very old root which exists both in the northern and the southern dialects).
In Kabyle, the verb doesn't exist, but there a noun derived from it :
Amanun (imunan) : this word is used in "azger amanun", which means "trained bull". It is the opposite of "azger aramul" which is not trained for farming activities like ploughing.
In the Modern Berber Vocabulary, the word "amanun" means "trainee" (stagiaire).
I think that the panamazigh verb "ssen" or "issin" comes from the root "NN" (the "s" of the transtive form + the root NN ?). I'm not sure though.
Finally, I would like to ask you a question :
When you read or explore very old Amazigh texts, don't you notice a difference between them and present day Amazigh language (apart from the vocabulary) ? The oldest Berber texts I have read (in Kabyle), trace back to the 16th century, and there is no difference between the language used in that period and the present day language (look "Poésie kabyle ancienne" - Old Kabyle poetry, by M. Mammeri), how about Moroccan and especially Chleuh texts ?
Have a nice evening
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
Re : Mots rares
There is also a village called Tannant in the region of Ntifa near Demnat, in the south-west
of Morocco there exists a tribe-conglomeration called Ida U Tanan (idaw tanan)
When I was reading the article on the Ibadit texts it was the first time i found this word back in a Amazigh language outside Morocco, the word isn't know outside the region I mentioned before.
I haven't encountered the word 'anen' yet there are more words used for
(to be educated) do you perhaps know which region this word came from is it Ahaggar
Mali, Niger etc.. in a publication of IRCAM I read Tunnunt for Sport probably taken from the same source.
The few texts I saw were quite simple and rich at the same time it depends on the authors writing and expression skills
for example Awzal is clear in his words. But there are older texts from 11 century
some words went out of use and some hidden in expressions or local regions in morocco and sometimes outside morocco [other things are grammar]
At present we have seen& know only a tip of the iceberg when it comes to Ancient Amazigh manuscripts [tamazgha in general Morocco in particular] and that is the most important source together with the oral tradition to enrich our daily vocabulary. There is still a lot of work to be done.
There is also a village called Tannant in the region of Ntifa near Demnat, in the south-west
of Morocco there exists a tribe-conglomeration called Ida U Tanan (idaw tanan)
When I was reading the article on the Ibadit texts it was the first time i found this word back in a Amazigh language outside Morocco, the word isn't know outside the region I mentioned before.
I haven't encountered the word 'anen' yet there are more words used for
(to be educated) do you perhaps know which region this word came from is it Ahaggar
Mali, Niger etc.. in a publication of IRCAM I read Tunnunt for Sport probably taken from the same source.
The few texts I saw were quite simple and rich at the same time it depends on the authors writing and expression skills
for example Awzal is clear in his words. But there are older texts from 11 century
some words went out of use and some hidden in expressions or local regions in morocco and sometimes outside morocco [other things are grammar]
At present we have seen& know only a tip of the iceberg when it comes to Ancient Amazigh manuscripts [tamazgha in general Morocco in particular] and that is the most important source together with the oral tradition to enrich our daily vocabulary. There is still a lot of work to be done.
Amastan13
New Member
Re : Mots rares
Afra n R'ebbi fell-ak a gma Idir,
Tanemmirt bahra f yineghmisen-ad yecnan
Anen : (verb)
I found this verb in the Lexique de Berbère Moderne, it was taken from Dictionnaire Français-Touareg of J.M. Cortade and M. Mammeri (Algiers, 1969). This dictionary was the French-Tuareg version of the big dictionary of de Foucault. The dictionary was made in the Ahaggar area. It represents only the dialect of the Ahaggar area.
"Anen" is translated as "s'instruire" (in Cortade's dictionary) (to learn).
M. Mammeri expanded the meaning to "to be educated".
How do you say "to be educated" in Chleuh ?
As for old Amazigh texts, I totally agree with you that it's interesting to exploit them in order to rediscover forgotten words and even ways of expression, and to revive them in today's decadent language. It's better than working years and years in order to creat neologisms
I think that Amazigh cannot be compared to European languages in terms of evolution. I have studied English, and I have seen the big difference that exists between Old English, Middle English and Modern English. No one can understand Old English (or Anglo-Saxon) without learning it as a language for itself, and it's the same thing for Middle English. It's even difficult to understand early Modern English (see Shakespearean texts) and you need a lot of reading and research in order to read these texts easily.
As for the Amazigh language, I think that it has changed at a very slow pace over the centuries. It's like the Semitic languages (languages based on roots). I think that if we go back some 1000 years backward, we would find that the tashelhit spoken then was more or less similar to the one spoken today (I mean, it's easy to understand it), contrary to languages like French or English.
As you said, there are words which are no more used nowadays ... I think that the main difference between Medieval Amazigh dialects and their modern descendents is in the vocabulary, and it's very interesting to study the survival of Amazigh medieval words in modern dialects. You said that there are some which are hidden in modern dialects and that's true I've been working for more than ten years in order to collect some of the "extinct" words in Kabylian. I'll tell you more about that, inshaallaah.
Ar timlilit ma yebgha R'ebbi
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
idir said:
Afra n R'ebbi fell-ak a gma Idir,
Tanemmirt bahra f yineghmisen-ad yecnan
Anen : (verb)
I found this verb in the Lexique de Berbère Moderne, it was taken from Dictionnaire Français-Touareg of J.M. Cortade and M. Mammeri (Algiers, 1969). This dictionary was the French-Tuareg version of the big dictionary of de Foucault. The dictionary was made in the Ahaggar area. It represents only the dialect of the Ahaggar area.
"Anen" is translated as "s'instruire" (in Cortade's dictionary) (to learn).
M. Mammeri expanded the meaning to "to be educated".
How do you say "to be educated" in Chleuh ?
As for old Amazigh texts, I totally agree with you that it's interesting to exploit them in order to rediscover forgotten words and even ways of expression, and to revive them in today's decadent language. It's better than working years and years in order to creat neologisms
I think that Amazigh cannot be compared to European languages in terms of evolution. I have studied English, and I have seen the big difference that exists between Old English, Middle English and Modern English. No one can understand Old English (or Anglo-Saxon) without learning it as a language for itself, and it's the same thing for Middle English. It's even difficult to understand early Modern English (see Shakespearean texts
) and you need a lot of reading and research in order to read these texts easily. As for the Amazigh language, I think that it has changed at a very slow pace over the centuries. It's like the Semitic languages (languages based on roots). I think that if we go back some 1000 years backward, we would find that the tashelhit spoken then was more or less similar to the one spoken today (I mean, it's easy to understand it), contrary to languages like French or English.
As you said, there are words which are no more used nowadays ... I think that the main difference between Medieval Amazigh dialects and their modern descendents is in the vocabulary, and it's very interesting to study the survival of Amazigh medieval words in modern dialects. You said that there are some which are hidden in modern dialects and that's true
I've been working for more than ten years in order to collect some of the "extinct" words in Kabylian. I'll tell you more about that, inshaallaah. Ar timlilit ma yebgha R'ebbi
http://imedyazen1.tripod.com
Re : Mots rares
::::::::nous on dit : nikkni ar nttini : ight (ixt) ira rbbi = si dieu le veut))
::::::::
:::::::: aZ'erf ou nnqqwert = argent
::::::::
:::::::: aZarif := alune
::::::::
:::::::: aZ'erraf = l'argenté (pour une personne riche ou un objet argenté )))))
::::::::
:::::::: azffar ou azffer := odeur souffré )
::::::::
:::::::: azufriy = le celibtaire ( une personne qui sente l'odeur de souffre . et san femme au foyer)) !
::::::::nous on dit : nikkni ar nttini : ight (ixt) ira rbbi = si dieu le veut))
::::::::
:::::::: aZ'erf ou nnqqwert = argent
::::::::
:::::::: aZarif := alune
::::::::
:::::::: aZ'erraf = l'argenté (pour une personne riche ou un objet argenté )))))
::::::::
:::::::: azffar ou azffer := odeur souffré )
::::::::
:::::::: azufriy = le celibtaire ( une personne qui sente l'odeur de souffre . et san femme au foyer)) !
Re : Mots rares
Tifawin Amastan13,
Is the word maybe related with ini: to say?
I would be very interessted to learn about your research tanmmirt
..."Anen" is translated as "s'instruire" (in Cortade's dictionary) (to learn)...
...I've been working for more than ten years in order to collect some of the "extinct" words in Kabylian. I'll tell you more about that, inshaallaah.
An other expression:
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/4830/tawssna1gv.jpg
Dieu seul le sait
[Ar. Allahu a3lam]
Tifawin Amastan13,
Is the word maybe related with ini: to say?
I would be very interessted to learn about your research tanmmirt
..."Anen" is translated as "s'instruire" (in Cortade's dictionary) (to learn)...
...I've been working for more than ten years in order to collect some of the "extinct" words in Kabylian. I'll tell you more about that, inshaallaah.
An other expression:
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/4830/tawssna1gv.jpg
Dieu seul le sait
[Ar. Allahu a3lam]
Re : Mots rares
I think the word which apears in the followin sentence like if it means the verb "to tell" (dire) is derived from another word which could be "anen" or from one of its old forms. In the same case what about the word nnit used in both tamazight and moroccan darija?
Ur inni ad iddu.
---->He is not going.
Ur tennim ad tighiyem ad tisiwlem dat as.
--->You will not be able to talk in front of him.
Moreover, this word is used, only, with négative structures.
idir said:
I think the word which apears in the followin sentence like if it means the verb "to tell" (dire) is derived from another word which could be "anen" or from one of its old forms. In the same case what about the word nnit used in both tamazight and moroccan darija?
Ur inni ad iddu.
---->He is not going.
Ur tennim ad tighiyem ad tisiwlem dat as.
--->You will not be able to talk in front of him.
Moreover, this word is used, only, with négative structures.